Was Today Anti-Rick Day?

Is there a new holiday I don't know about? I'm thinking today might have been unofficial "Anti-Rick Warren" day and no one informed the rest of us. I have heard so much smack talk about Rick Warren lately that's out of control.

Yes, he sold millions of books. Yes, he Pastors a big church. Yes, he has a passion to reach people that don't know Jesus. Yes, he is using the money he earned from his books sales to help plant churches and relieve the pain of those suffering in Africa. I know these are all reasons to hate. :)

Seriously, I've heard people criticizing him for agreeing to speak to people in North Korea because they're Communist. (Everyone knows Communists don't need the Gospel!) I heard a Pastor call him a "Punk" at a Pastor's Conference because USA Today called Rick a uniter of the faith (How dare they say nice things about Christians!).

Friends, there is an enemy, but his name isn't Rick. I don't agree with everything Rick says or does. That's not the point. The point is that he loves Jesus and is seeking to serve Him as He feels led of the Lord. If you don't like him or his books, here's a suggestion: Don't read his books or listen to his messages! Come on people, we know this stuff! Under the guise of needing to be discerning, we slander people who are our brothers and sisters in the faith.

So in light of all the negative stuff I've heard about Rick today, I've decided that Friday July 7th is Pro-Rick day where people can leave positive comments about Rick.

(Just to save some of you time and speculation: I am not a Purpose Driven Church. I did read the book several years ago and thought it was good. I read the Purpose Driven Life and even bought my dad a copy of it. I think the book is helpful for many. I don't see eye to eye with everything they do at Saddleback. Some of their stuff isn't our style, but I appreciate their work for the kingdom.)

Comments

[bill streger]

You've been reading too many angry Calvinist blogs, haven't you? So many from are tribe are as Mark Driscoll said in a recent message "more concerned with perfecting the theology of Paul than living out the lifestyle and mission of Paul."

[Bob Franquiz]

There's been some reading and some conversation. I'm just shocked by the hostility. People need to lighten up!

[Pedro Delgado]

I really don't know why there's so many within the church that just love to divide God's people. Why does God put up with it? I don't think I would if I were Him. But then again, I used to be a strong supporter of Calvinism and would attack (in the friendly sense of the word of course) any who would disagree. Praise the Lord that's all in the past.

The Bible teaches us to have a fervent love for one another. If we fill ourselves with love, we can appreciate everyone's opinion and really be able to make a difference in the lives of those around us.

Rick, if you're hearing..."You rock!" Keep up the good work! Bob, you're pretty good too man. :)

[Michael Foster]

Rick loves and preaches Jesus. That someone I can be thankful for...

Yeah, alot of Calvins are way too uptight. I, on the other hand, in celebration of reformed tradition crack open some dark beer and read my bible! Its the best way to unwind!

[Los]

Rick is about souls for eternity. I think haters need to ask themselves what they are hating.

[Douglas]

Rick Warren is a false teacher Bob, spreading his deceptive Purpose Driven leaven throughtout the church, world wide, deceiving millions upon millions of people and you cannot see it. There are none so blind as those who cannot see. Tragic, Brother, tragic, unless of course God is sending this great delusion? Freaky. Many are called but few are chosen.

[Douglas]

Bob,

me old china plate,

I do not think about Rick Warren all the time, I do not go hunting all over the Internet every day looking for stuff about Rick Warren, dirt that I could dig up about him, he has lived a squeky clean life, I agonize all the time over all the millions of people he is deceiving through his distrotions of Scripture and twisting of God's word. It nearly drives me insane thinking about it all. It very nearly places me into the depths of despair with what his Purpose Driven Life deceptions are doing, I could weep constantly over it but I cannot afford to......

But you are like most others aren't you, you are not really all that bothered about what I have to say, eh? You don't really care all that much about what Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven Movement is doing do you? You think he is basically ok because he does all those wonderful good works? But who lets the whole world know about them, who tells the media about them? Telling them he paid back 25 years of salary, has set up three foundations, pays 90% tithes (tithing is under the law by the way and that causes one to fall from grace, see Galatians) and keeps 10% for himself, etc so on and so forth? Rick Warren does. He even told Reformation Magazine when they interviewed him, they didn't ask, he voluntary offered the info to them about paying back his salary etc.

Several years ago, when I was living Australia, I got talking about Rick Warren's teachings with a brother. I had got Rick Warren's books because they were all the rage, every one was raving on about them. But as soon as I started reading them I saw things that were wrong but I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was at first. So that sent me on a journey of discovery. A discovery of what is the truth here. And I can tell you, unequivocally, Rick Warren has ever so subtly distorted the truth, he HAS redefined Christianity into something else. Rick Warren's teachings, at times, run so closely parallel to the truth you would think it is the truth but I can tell you, it isn't. It is not easy to see what he has done and what he is doing.

To quote pastor Bob DeWaay about Rick Warren's address at the Religion Newswriters Association's annual conference September 29, 2005, "Should evangelicals be alarmed, or should they join (Rick Warren's P.E.C.A.E. plan)? I am alarmed. The entire forty-minute speech before a mixed group of writers could be summarized as Rick Warren talking about Rick Warren. He presented no mention of the gospel, no description of the Person and work of Christ, and nothing that would lead one to believe that conversions from dead works to faith in the resurrected Christ have a place in this plan. Apparently re-branded evangelicalism is a new form of the old, liberal social gospel."
page 9
Redefining Christianity: Understanding The Purpose Driven Movement
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0977196437/104-5589065-8721550?v=glancen=283155

This is part of what pastor DeWaay says at the 12:20 minute mark, on broadcast one at Oneplace.com which I have transcribed but you can listen to the whole broadcast yourself at a convenient time (listen to the whole ten so far, it is shocking)
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/
Critical_Issues_Commentary/archives.asp:

"There is one church that took this on. I had a friend that was going to this church and became one of these type of churches and they started bringing in trained dogs to jump through hoops and they had the pastor going down the aisle on a scooter to the sound of Steppenwolf "Born To Be Wild." My friend sent me some of the cassettes of the tapes, this is like ten years ago when they did this and it would be a whole story about being too stressed, with no Bible. Another story about how to have a better marriage, you know, and maybe there's a Bible verse in a bulletin that really had nothing to do with what they were talking about and so my friend got upset and left and when this thing started the church had 350 people, it was a Bible based gospel church, that same church now has 8000 people going to it, the biggest church in Minnesota and they continue, they got a theater, they got coffee, I mean it's just like an entertainment complex and the word of God is not preached with authority and power from the pulpit, ever! Well then, this is Warren's response, "Because preachers are called to communicate truth, we often mistakenly assume that unbelievers are eager to hear it. But unbelievers aren't that interested in truth these days. In fact, surveys show that the majority of Americans reject the idea of absolute truth" (226 PDC), and then he goes to Ephesians to prove his point, hey he went to the gospel to prove this he says, "Speak only what is helpful for building up others according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." (Ephesians 4:29, I don't know what version that is from that Warren used there). Here's his rational, he used the Bible, Bob. Right and in my book I refute that because I show that he is misapplying the Bible. The "others" there are people that are already converted, they're Christians and its not talking about what you preach to the non-Christian public. Now if you preach to the non-Christians according to how they perceive their needs, which really is not what that the verse says anyhow, you will never preach the gospel, for as he said, they are not interested in truth. Ok, so the target audience determines the message of the church according to Rick Warren, the target audience he says, are not interested in truth, so what's the conclusion? Don't preach the truth. So what do you preach? Well, read the Purpose Driven Life and you'll find out. God has a wonderful plan, you need to find out your purpose, you need to go on this journey, you need to take oaths, you need to turn forty days over to me and run through my program and on and on and on and on without ever once saying this, ever!, ever!, 'God's wrath is directed against the sins of every person in the world, and the penalty of sin is death and eternity in hell. And that this is such a serious problem that it required the blood atonement, that Jesus who existed as God and with God from all eternity, who was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, He died on the cross in order to avert God's wrath against your sins and God raised Him on the third day. You read through the entire Purpose Driven book, both of them, you never find that message stated like I just stated it, anywhere.' "
(Emphasis mine)

There is an example of Rick Warren twisting a Scripture and examples of what he does preach and what he doesn't preach. He leaves out the wrath of God, the awesome fear of God, the absolute holiness of God, the bloody crucifixion, the blood atonement, God is angry with the wicked every day, God hates the workers of iniquity, he leaves out all the hard sayings of Scripture.

Now is this troubling or not? >>>

"This brings us to his most disturbing alteration, the gospel itself. To charge Warren with modification of the gospel is an ugly accusation, one that should not be made lightly. What is the evidence for such an indictment? Consider the following:

In the video that accompanies the “40 Days of Purpose,” Warren leads his listeners in prayer at the end of the first session. The prayer goes like this:

"Dear God, I want to know your purpose for my life. I don't want to base the rest of my life on wrong things. I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity by getting to know you. Jesus Christ, I don't understand how but as much as I know how I want to open up my life to you. Make yourself real to me. And use this series in my life to help me know what you made me for." Warren goes on to say: "Now if you've just prayed that prayer for the very first time I want to congratulate you. You've just become a part of the family of God."

Warren would be hard-pressed to find biblical backing for this presentation of the gospel. We find nothing here about sin, grace, repentance, the person of Christ, Calvary, faith, judgment, or the resurrection. This is the ultimate in a mutilated, seeker-sensitive gospel: the seeker comes to Christ in order to find his purpose in life, not to receive forgiveness from sin and the righteousness of God. Then, to pronounce someone a full-fledged member of the family of God because he has prayed such a prayer (based on minimal, if any, understanding of the person and work of Christ), is beyond tragic.

Does Warren do any better in his book, The Purpose-Driven Life? A little, but not much. Concerning eternity he tells his readers, “If you learn to love and trust God’s Son, Jesus, you will be invited to spend the rest of eternity with him. On the other hand, if you reject his life, forgiveness, and salvation, you will spend eternity apart forever” (p. 37). There is just enough truth here to be confusing, but the New Testament never tells us to learn to love and trust Christ in order to be saved. We are told to repent (Acts 17:30) and place our faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), not “learn to love and trust.” Just how does the unbeliever go about learning to love and trust Jesus? These are fruits of regeneration, not means to regeneration.

On page 58 Warren gives perhaps his most complete gospel presentation found in The Purpose-Driven Life. There he tells his readers that they must first believe God loves them and has chosen them to have a relationship with his Son who died on the cross for them. Warren writes, “Real life begins by committing yourself completely to Jesus Christ.” I would not argue with that, but how are we to commit ourselves to Christ? Warren states, “Right now, God is inviting you to live for his glory by fulfilling the purposes he made you for… all you need to do is receive and believe…. Will you accept God’s offer?” Then he again offers a sample prayer, “I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity, ‘Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you.’” He then promises, “If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God! You are now ready to discover and start living God’s purpose for your life.” It is worth noting that this gospel presentation is found on Day 7 (of the 40-day journey). We are to assume that the content of Days 1-6 have led up to this invitation to receive Christ. What Warren believes a sinner needs to know to become part of the family of God has presumably been presented in the first week of the journey. But Warren has said nothing about who Jesus is, why He died on the cross, in what manner He is their Savior, the cleansing power of the blood of Christ, repentance or confession of sin, the consequences of sin, or again, the resurrection of Christ. In a biblically illiterate, post-Christian era, it cannot be assumed that the unbeliever has any concept of any of these things. This is especially disturbing in light of Warren’s central message: find God and you will find yourself (purpose). When this is undeniably the thesis of The Purpose-Driven Life, and the “Forty Days of Purpose” campaign, the unbeliever would naturally conclude that he is praying a prayer that will enable him to solve the problem of lack of purpose in his life. Where in the Scriptures is the gospel ever presented as Warren presents it? We are hopeful that Warren does not personally deny any of the essential elements of the gospel, but he certainly does not give them proper weight and he leaves much to the imagination of his readers.

John MacArthur is on target when he writes, “Listening to a seeker-sensitive evangelical preacher today, we’re likely to think it’s easy to be a Christian. Just say these little words, pray this little prayer, and poof! you’re in the club.” Admittedly, salvation is received by faith alone in Christ alone, but it is not received by mouthing a little prayer lacking in biblical content and understanding, with the hopes that you will find purpose in life. As a matter of fact, one evangelical leader is reported to have entitled a sermon in response to the seeker-sensitive gospel, “How to Fill Your Church with Tares.“

MacArthur warns, “People are breezing through those wide, comfortable, inviting gates with all their baggage, their self-needs, their self-esteem, and their desire for fulfillment and self-satisfaction. And the most horrible thing about it is they think they’re going to heaven.” - The Gospel According to Warren
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/print_articles.asp?ID=112

Bob,

you will be held accountable to God alone for promoting a false teacher, along with many others these days, and for misleading others. Horrors. Are you ready to appear before the Judgment of God?

[Bill LaMlorey]

I really need to switch over to the Calvinist camp...a Guinness stout on tap sounds VERY appealing after skimming through Douglas' comments...

[chris g]

i like rick.

[Bob Franquiz]

Douglas,

We definitely disagree. Your attacking tone makes me not want to continue this dialogue. It is exactly why I jokes about Calvinists being unhappy. So it ends here. If you'd like to rant, please do it someone else. There are a lot of people who don't have jobs, and have no interest in reaching people that don't know Jesus, who would LOVE to argue this stuff with you. I'm just not one of those people.

Peace out!

[Bob Franquiz]

Pedro,

You nailed it! Bill and Michael raise their beers to you. :) I raise a Fiji water in your honor.

Wise words my friend!

[Douglas]

"Your attacking tone makes me not want to continue this dialogue."

Bob,

"open rebuke is better than secret love."

You must hate the attacking tone of God in the Old Testament then, eh? You must hate the attacking tone of the LORD Jesus Christ in the New Testament then, eh? You must hate the attacking tones of Stephen, Peter, Paul to name a few, eh? Hey, why not rip out all those pages of your Bible where there are attacking tones, there's heaps, eh?

My attacking tone is against false teachers and false teachings, your tone promotes them. You cannot cope with this dialogue because you have your fingers firmly rammed into your ears. You do NOT won't to hear the truth that you have embraced error. You are a tickling ears person, you want your own ears scratched and you are scratching others ears with tasty words.

What is behind my tone is compassion that I was once devoid of. Being an ex-bike gang memeber I will leave it up to your imagination to the horrors I committed in the past. Once I loved evil now I hate it. False teaching is evil.

Bob,

it is appointed unto you once to die then the Judgment, and as things stand now, you will NOT experience happiness. You will appear naked and fully exposed, trembling and quivering in abject terror in the presence of almighty God.

My words are seasoned with grace, something you definitely do not deserve, do you?

I speak the word in love, agape, a love the world does NOT understand nor do many professing Christians. They think love is this warm oooey goooey lovey dovey warm glowing feeling but it is not. Agape result in emotions being stirred but agape is objective love towards the loved solely for their own good and not for anything the person who gives it.

Bob,

do you sin in thought, word and deed every day? Are you repenting always? Do you see the exceedingly sinfulness of sin? In your life? In others? In the world around you?

Bob,

did you receive and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ then you were born of God, saved, or were you born of God to receive and believe first? Did God grant you repentance before regeneration or at the moment of and in consequence of the new birth? John 1:12-13 John 3

Peace, peace!

(J. C. Philpot, from his 'Reviews')

They dress the wound of My people as though
it were not serious. "Peace, peace!" they say,
when there is no peace. Jeremiah 8:11

How Jeremiah testifies against those prophets
who prophesy smooth things—who prophesy
deceits—who know not the way of the Lord,
nor have walked in His counsel.

There is no greater mark of false ministers given
in the word of truth, than healing the wound of God's
people slightly, saying, "Peace, peace!" when there
is no peace.

If we carefully read the book of Jeremiah, we shall
see that the great sin and the chief deception of all
the false prophets who sprang up in scores during the
period of his ministry, was to build up the people in a
false hope—to assure them that they had no reason
to fear the judgments of God—that the Lord would
not execute against them what He threatened. They
therefore hardened the people in sin and disobedience,
led them to trifle with and despise the judgments of God,
and built them up in a false confidence that, because they
were the people of God by external profession, they were
His also by regenerating grace.

If our eyes were fully open to see the effect of the false
teaching of our day, we would see it equally dishonoring
to God—and pregnant with equally awful consequences.

We would see hundreds of dead professors built up
without a foundation of repentance toward God. We
would see sin made a little matter of—the awful anger
of the Almighty against it, and His dreadful indignation
against transgressors passed by as a thing of little
importance. We would see the strait and narrow path
widened out in all directions—and the distinguishing
truths of the gospel beaten down and amalgamated
with the grossest errors.

[Rod Pearcy]

I like people who love Jesus
Rick loves Jesus
I like Rick

This is the only formula I ever learned in algebra, and this one works for me.

[Douglas]

"Rick loves Jesus"

Which Jesus?

This Jesus?:

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: 'The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.'

Rick Warren will have to give an account to this Jesus for torturing His Word!!! You should be praying for Rick Warren that God opens his blind eyes and gives him the true gift of repentance.

Or does Rick Warren love this Jesus?:

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

Does He love Him who is angry with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11)? Do you?

Do you both love this God?:

The God Nobody Knows

This study discusses attributes of God that very few people know about. These attributes are attributes that many people do not want to believe God has, because they are normally thought of as "negative" character traits. However, when we better understand the sovereignty of God and His position above us, we can see that God has every right to do as he pleases and is not answerable to any man:

Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The following verses clearly indicate that it is God who:

1. tears, heals, smites, binds up (Hosea 6:1)

2. devours like a lion (Hosea 13:8)

3. wounds, afflicts, strikes, bruises, smites, makes sore, heals, kills, makes alive, declaring: "there is no god with me" (Deut. 32:39, 1Sam. 2:6, Jer. 31:28, Job 5:18, Isa. 53:10)

4. forms the light, creates & causes darkness (Isa. 45:7; Jer. 13:16; Ex. 10:21, 14:10)

5. makes peace, makes the dumb, deaf, seeing, blind (Exodus 4:11)

6. sends sore judgments upon Jerusalem (the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast) (Ezek. 14:21)

7. sends an evil spirit (Judges 9:23, 1Sam. 16:14, 18:10, 19:9-10)

8. sends evil angels (Psalms 78:49)

9. shoots arrows & darts, breaks bones (Lam. 3:12-13, Num. 24:8-9, Deut. 32:22)

10. heaps mischief upon people (Deut. 32:23)

11. breaks in pieces horses, nations, chariots, rider, men, women, the young, the old, the young man, the maiden, shepherds, flocks, husbandman/yoke of oxen, captains/rulers (Jer. 51:20-23)

12. turns men to destruction (Psalms 90:3)

13. is as a moth and rottenness (Hos. 5:12)

14. feeds and makes drunk with worm wood, gives the water of gall to drink (Lam. 3:15, Jer. 9:15)

15. creates and brings evil (calamities) (Isa. 45:7, Jer. 18:8, Job 2:10, Amos 3:6)

1. God tears, heals, smites, binds up (Hosea 6:1)

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2. God devours like a lion (Hosea 13:8)

Hosea 13:8 I will meet them as a bear [that is] bereaved [of her whelps], and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

3. God wounds, afflicts, strikes, bruises, smites, makes sore, heals, kills, makes alive, declaring: "there is no god with me" (Deut. 32:39, 1Sam. 2:6, Jer. 31:28, Job 5:18, Isa. 53:10)

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

1Samuel 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Jeremiah 31:28 And it shall come to pass, [that] like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

Job 5:18 For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

4. God forms the light, creates & causes darkness (Isa. 45:7; Jer. 13:16; Ex. 10:21, 14:10)

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Jeremiah 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, [and] make [it] gross darkness.

Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness [which] may be felt.

Exodus 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness [to them], but it gave light by night [to these]: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

5. God makes peace, makes the dumb, deaf, seeing, blind (Exodus 4:11)

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

6. God sends sore judgments upon Jerusalem (the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast) (Ezek. 14:21)

Ezekiel 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

7. God sends evil spirits (Judges 9:23, 1Sam. 16:14, 18:10, 19:9-10)

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Samuel 18:10; 19:9-10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand. [19:9-10] And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with [his] hand. 10 And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin; but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.

8. God sends evil angels (Psalms 78:49)

Psalms 78:49; 90:3 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [among them]. 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

9. God shoots arrows and darts, breaks bones (Lam. 3:12-13, Num. 24:8-9, Deut. 32:22)

Lamentations 3:12-13 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow. 13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.

Numbers 24:8-9 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce [them] through with his arrows. 9 He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed [is] he that blesseth thee, and cursed [is] he that curseth thee.

Deuteronomy 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

10. God heaps mischief upon people (Deut. 32:23)

Deuteronomy 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

11. breaks in pieces horses, nations, chariots, rider, men, women, the young, the old, the young man, the maiden, shepherds, flocks, husbandman/yoke of oxen, captains/rulers (Jer. 51:20-23)

Jeremiah 51:20-23 Thou [art] my battle axe [and] weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms; 21 And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider; 22 With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid; 23 I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers.

12. God turns men to destruction (Psalms 90:3)

Psalms 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

13. God is as a moth and rottenness (Hos. 5:12)

Hosea 5:12 Therefore [will] I [be] unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.

14. God feeds and makes drunk with worm wood, giving water of gall to drink (Lam. 3:15, Jer. 9:15)

Lamentations 3:15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.

Jeremiah 9:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, [even] this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.

15. God creates and brings evil (calamity) (Isa. 45:7, Jer. 18:8, Job 2:10, Amos 3:6)

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

----------------------------------

We must be careful not to "blame" Satan for everything, which can become a common practice when we do not fully understand who God is and what HE SAYS HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR. God is in charge. He is in control of EVERYTHING. ... He has not relinquished His crown or His throne to some evil enemy. All the more reason for us to take heed to this verse:

"Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil."
[Proverbs 3:7]

.............................

[In many cases we should] see that it is God who blinds:

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Romans 11:8 "(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day."

Why would God blind some people and not others?

Nobody knows the answer to that question except God. All God has told us is that He has elected some people to eternal life as it pleased Him:

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself"

The rest have not had their sins paid for by Christ, and therefore will have to pay for them themselves - in hell - for all eternity.

[Bob Franquiz]

Douglas,

We don't see eye to eye. Your tone is not one of love. It is angry. You say it is compassion, but it comes off as angry and hostile. If you can't be gracious and have an intelligent conversation without being attacking, then you will be prohibited from commenting here anymore. The people who comment here love God and are happy to enter into mature conversation. If you cannot control (Gal. 5:22-23) yourself and do that, then this line of communication is over.

[Dan]

First, did you know that w/ typepad you can choose what post go on your blog and which one's do not. Just wanted to point that out incase you do not want one of Douglas' rants appearing on your site.
Second, why does the picture of Rick looks like he is walking on water? (hahaha...cynical remark).
Rick is cool, I subscribe to Relevant magazine (relevantmagazine.com) and Rick writes a monthly column for our generation. His last writings were sweet...about what do we know what is true. In each point he used the bible to back his writings so it said to me that we know what is true because the bible tells us. There is more than that but I recommend reading the article. I also do not agree with everything Saddleback does but they problem feel the same about me, the main point is that we both agree in the same God and salvation. I know this for true which blows my mind: Rick gave the majority of his profits from the book to repay all of his salaries to Saddleback so that they can be more effective in ministry. I know that he live on a 90/10 lifestyle. where his wife and him give 90% away and live on 10%. He wants not just his church but all churches to adopt a 3rd world village and establish christian churches around the world; where the village can come and get humanitarian aid. I know at Saddleback they are all about community. There is a tent village that provides free wifi and sound-domes for people to come relax in and the list goes on. All I see is that he wants the message of Christ to be inclusive (which it is) not exclusive (which some christians want to make it).

[Douglas]

Bob,

go back through all the comments to me and see who has been truly gracious and loving and caring and understanding towards me? Look at the sarcastic comments for goodness sakes. Surely you are not that blind. You have not conceded one Biblical point I have raised. You have commented on my so called tone(you cannot see the tears I have shed), my so called lack of grace, my perceived hostility, my anger, where does it say in the Bible not to be angry against wickendness and falsehoods etc.? How loving and kind and gengerous and compassionate and understanding have you folks been towards me?

If I came to your church, I bet you would make me sit on the floor, the ravages of sin have left me in a terrible state, I have reaped what I sowed, I am so uncool, I await the new heavens and the new earth, I await the time when I will put on incorruption and immortality.

Anyways,

maybe something went in Bob, may the Holy Spirit wrought a work in you that you have never ever known before. May He stamp eternity upon your eyeballs as He sets eternity upon our hearts.

Good-bye Bob,

agape

Traveling to glory, honor, immortality and eternal life!

(J. A. James, "Faith and the Blessings of This Life")

Earth is to its inhabitants, neither a paradise nor
a desert. If it has not all the beautiful scenes and
productions of a paradise--so neither has it all the
dreariness and desolation of a desert. This world is
called "a valley of tears," but it is not less true that
it is sometimes a valley without the tears. It often
wears a smiling aspect, and reflects the light of
God's graciousness and bounty.

We know very well that man's chief portion lies in
the blessings of salvation, and the hope of eternal
glory. These are so vast as almost to reduce all else
to nothing. Full pardon of sin, and the hope of an
eternity of pure and perfect felicity, are such
amazing expectations, as might seem to render
us absolutely indifferent alike to . . .
poverty and riches;
pain and ease;
obscurity and renown.

How little would it signify to him who was going to take
possession of a kingdom and a throne, whether he traveled
through a desert or a garden; or whether he dined meagerly
or sumptuously; or whether he had all best accommodations
and conveniences along the way. His thoughts would be so
engrossed with the permanent scenes of greatness, grandeur,
power, and wealth before him--as to be almost insensible to
the privations or comforts along the way. So it is, with a
Christian traveling to glory, honor, immortality and
eternal life!

It is incumbent upon Christians to let their spirit and
conduct be consistent with the hope of eternal glory,
in that eminent spirituality and heavenliness of mind,
which are manifested in a supreme, constant, and
practical regard to divine and eternal things.

[Dan]

Man, who is this person? At one point he wants to criticize your points but than comes back and ask for pitty because of what people have said about him. I'll be honest and say that I have not read this whole conversation because on time but the only request that I have read, is that this person start their own blog. That is not so difficult. In fact I'll help Douglas put a blog together just for himself. Its not about being gracious, loving and caring when someone believes in the faith and than rips apart piece by piece in a negative tone. How is that gracious, loving and caring? Paul actually writes about not using the scriptures to argue with one another. SO I hope you do not see my point as in trying to argue with you but to encourage you.

Since you like to use the word so much in 1 John 1 it says: But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Together we all have fellowship(through Christ). But how can we have fellowship if you try to create conversation out of provoking someone? There are blanketed statements by yourself about Bob. Do you know him? Have you actually visited his church? I did not know so much anger could come out of someone because they were asked to start their own blog or they were told the conversation was going to be stopped. The main reason why Christ had so much compassion, love, and grace is so that we would know his father in heaven. Not so that we could use it to argue with one another and than ask for a simple backdoor. Paul even writes about grace and why would we sin more so that grace could abound more? No, but that with our current situation God's grace would suffice. You already asked for forgiveness once and was given that by several people. Now there are more rants and accusations made; but you assume there are no consquences or responsibility from those choices. The grace that is given is that your voice is able to be heard w/o censorship but not entertained. Again, I will be glad to talk to you on how to build your own blog.

[Douglas]

"In fact I'll help Douglas put a blog together just for himself."

Thanks Dan but non thank you.

[Douglas]

Sorry Dan, I meant no thank you.